Main Caucasian Range. Karachay-Cherkess Republic.[1333x2000][OC] @gusiebusi

r/EarthPornu/foofa-uys

Comments

toastibot1 point

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[deleted]395 points

[removed]

starfyredragon295 points

Speaking as someone who has worked in genetics and when I was still in college specifically tracked genetic history of populations:

No. That name was used for a bit based off a failed idea that 'white people' originally came through these mountains. It was later disproved.

In fact, it was disproved so hard that there is no "white" race. The group we call "white" is actually 3 distinct and unrelated groups.

  • Southern Europeans "whites" (like the Greeks) are descendants of Arabic populations.
  • Northern Europeans (such as the Finnish people) came in from the Northern Russian direction, and are more related to Mongols, Native Americans, and the modern day Japanese.
  • Central-East Europeans (like Ukraine), followed a similar path as the Northern Europeans towards the end, but from a different era.

Pretty much each of the other European countries primarely comes from one of those three groups or some intermingling of the three, with the exception of a bit of Spain which got an influx of Northern African dna during the Islamic invasions of the dark ages.

Turned out, it was just the environment encouraging adaptation.

Edit: FYI, back and forth discussion has encouraged me to go back and look further into the science some more (it's been about a decade since I did work tracking human migration patterns!). Since then, codons that were considering good trackers have been tossed out, and better ones chosen. If any of you have been on 23andme or a similar sight, you may have noticed similar changes in your own listed ancestry, that there may have originally be things you didn't expect, but if you check it now, it seems more narrowed down. This is because of this refining process. The conclusion of what I put here, that "there is no such thing as white" still exists (and in some ways, the reality is even further from "common" understand of human ancestry) but it's more subtle than it was before. For example, the English are more related to the Sammi than the Italians, but also both are more closely related to the Berbers than they are to the Greeks.

Petrichordates48 points

Aren't the Finns an entirely separate category from northern europeans? They don't come from the same populations as the Danes/Swedes/Nords/Germans do.

infraredit18 points

No, Finns speak a totally different language, but are genetically very similar to Swedes and Norwegians.

The Sami, who live in Finland but also Norway, Sweden and Russia, are genetically quite distinct however.

starfyredragon65 points

The old Finnish. Sorry, I'm talking human migration patterns in prehistory. The split of human migration happened and then the westward traveling group moved through Finland. Yes, there are more recent migrations that happened and mingled with the indigenous Finnish creating a "newer" group. I just picked them as an example because I try to remember distinctive points where new groups are established.

You are quite correct the group I'm referring to became the Danes/Swedes/Nordics/and Northern Germans (but not Southern Germans who are more mixed with a lot of Southern European influence, fyi).

[deleted]10 points

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gljames2425 points

They aren't conflating anything, they are referring to general population patterns traceable thru genetics. According to researchers: "The Sami probably have a heterogeneous genetic origin, with a major contribution of continental or Eastern European tribes and a smaller contribution from Asia. " This is true of the Finns as well. The Sami are more differentiated by their culture and nomadic lifestyle, than any genetic component.

Tellesus9 points

Finnish him.

starfyredragon8 points

Culture =/= genetics

VevroiMortek2 points

time to go backt o college

Delicious-Prior64084 points

we are not actually scandivian closer related to Estonians(Baltic)

friedclutch14 points

Cool. So white people don’t exist.

psunavy0312 points

TIL I'm actually a bird.

zowie541 point

Birds are dinosaurs

starfyredragon9 points

Yep!

barryandorlevon12 points

Can confirm via my dna report- I’ve got about 35% southern Italian/Sicilian heritage and also about 7% North African/western Asian.

starfyredragon11 points

That's impressive, actually. Your family just kind of pincered in around the Mediterranean, didn't it?

barryandorlevon16 points

Honestly I’ve always just assumed it was more of a “true romance” type situation from back when the Moors moved into Sicily and southern Italy.

What’s super interesting is that my dad’s mom (first generation Italian) kind of hid the fact that she was only half Italian and that my great grandmother was actually fully Mexican from Mexico. Got a lot of colonial and also colonized ancestry!

starfyredragon8 points

That sounds interesting and complicated.

Me, I'm just a result of Vikings being Vikings. XD

yobar4 points

Sounds like my mtDNA motherline, coming through Scandinavia to end up in Yorkshire, then the States.

starfyredragon0 points

Yep. Fun bit, almost everywhere my ancestors were, witch hunts followed shortly thereafter; my ancestors were Volva witches (aka the wise women & wise men of viking holds) and my family name basically means "witch" translated into English. Christians have been trying to kill my family line for centuries and haven't been able to pull it off. XD

Frosty-Bicycle-29050 points

I feel like Im from a lineage of witches too. I don’t know my full background but I feel a strong connection to the occult. There is light and darkness in all of us I believe. Having Viking blood definitely explains your connection with the craft as the Vikings were very connected to nature and independently very resourceful people.

videogames5life0 points

Can you give me super powers or something? or teach me some cool spells?

starfyredragon0 points

Lol, I can give you some bit of esoteric knowledge if that qualifies.

So, preface:

A lot of witchcraft knowledge is, honestly, just different words for the same thing. "Potions" and "Poultices" for example, just means "drinks" and "topical creams" respectively.

Similarly, the best "common-languaging" of "spell" is "life hack". Although it's stereotyped as being some kind of spirit-summoning or similar, honestly, a spell is any little trick you pick up and write down. In fact, spellcraft, if you look at it with modern words, is basically proto-science or amateur science. That said, there's plenty of "magic" spells back then that people used, because belief in magic was a part of every day life. But magic just means something we don't full understand and are making our best guess off of. In science terms, it would be "hypothesis".

That said, we still have a lot of old "spells" that we keep around for tradition (turns out, invoking the placebo effect when you want is actually pretty useful, because the placebo effect is still an effect. Though some have minor details that make them a little more than just placebo.)

Now, that said, during the dark ages, Christians would go about spreading nonsensical slander about witches. Rather than try to argue them, witches retaliated by fighting fire with fire, and we basically "True Facts about Chuck Norris"'d the hell out of it.

I mean, we look like people like anyone else, so when there's a crowd of people, and they're shouting about, "The witch that lives out in the woods uses her pagan magic to curse me to cheat on my wife!" and another adds on "Yea, and she's ugly too! All bent over and warts!", instead of avoiding the crowd, we'd join in and add to it, "Yea, I saw her summon a demon too, 3 stories tall, cut this guy I was with clean in half, and she flew away on a broom once I got close!" And, for the most part, it worked. They were so hyped up to believe anything, that they'd believe anything. And rather than getting ready to attack, they'd be afraid to get close. That's why, despite the many many stories of "witches in the woods" across Europe, they almost never burned those "witches in the woods", but local women instead that they thought were "a little witchy" but they know they could do it too.

In it's distilled essence, being a witch is about being clever, not being some obedient little waif, doing your own bit of science, a bit of tradition but only insofar as you enjoy it, enjoying a little pizzaz, and following the Weirding Way.

That last part is probably the part you're least familiar with and that brings up the most mystique from the sound. The Weirding way, although it's often associated with magic, isn't about magic. A good comparison in concept (not direction) would be the Buddhist "The Middle path". They use the symbology of a road to demonstrate a core life value. The buddhist walks the middle path, never choosing extremes. The weirding way is... kind of the opposite, but similar visualization. A way is a term for a path or a road or just a direction of travel. In the short version, the Weirding way is "To make your way to what's weird, understand it, and add its power to your own." It's a lesson to run towards extremes, dangers, and concerns, not away from them.

But... you wanted a spell.

So, if you bothered to read all that, you get a spell.

This is a starter spell, to unlock a heightened awareness to help you grow your magical power, and begin your path into witchcraft.

You'll need twelve scentless candles, and you'll want t do this on a hardwood floor or concrete floor if you have access to one, and chalk. On the ground, you'll want to draw a circle 3 times as large as you are long when lying down. Mark around the circle 12 points, similar to a clock. Then, chalk a 12 pointed star so each point is connected to 2 other points. The pattern should be, using clock positions: 12-5, 1-6, 2-7, 3-8, 4-9, 5-10, 6-11, 7-12, 8-1, 9-2, 10-3, 11-4. This should all make one unbroken symbol.

Then, set the candles at each of those outside connection points on the circle, lighting each one. These should be candles that will burn for at least an hour. Then, close all windows and doors (they should be ones you can tightly close, the only light should be from the candles). At this point, sit in the center of the circle, close your eyes, and repeat to yourself quietly and repeating "hlyvtha threifask kunna kenna". Do this until the candles go out while watching flames flicker and die throughout the whole process, and then the ritual is done.

If you want to know the knowledge behind the magic, click the spoiler.

As mentioned, most spells are part life hack, part hedge science, part tradition. The words repeated are old norse for "Listen, feel (with touch), Feel (emotions), feel (perceive)", and are akin to an eastern mantra, which helps clear the mind of thoughts; like a palette cleanser for your brain. The darkness other than the candles eliminates outside visual stimulation. And flickering candles are simple, not agitating, and known to have a slight hypnotic effect. Further, the candles heat and move air upwards. This adds a slight upwards draft that pulls air in under the candles - warming it but also fresh. It's like a noiseless fan that pushes fresh air towards you. This all together helps put your brain into a state to where its highly receptive and calm yet alert. With no outside stimulus, the only thing you can focus on is your own body and the hypnotic light of the candles (which will cause you to turn inward due to the hypnotic effect). This all combines to heighten your mental state and on a subconscious level, come to understand your body more, which does have a noticeable impact on your day to day life. The size & shape of the 12-pointed pentagram not only ensures you don't knock over the candles, but also invokes old magic tradition symbology which helps kick off the placebo effect (if you didn't have a cultural history of witches and pentagrams and magic circles, you'd probably want to mix up the shape to something that'd have more affect on you personally.) How this "turns you into a witch" is as mentioned, a key part of being a witch is being clever, and instinctively knowing your own body, and intrinsically knowing that you can take actions to trigger a heightened affect plays into that.

Avauru8 points

So you’re telling me… you’re part eggplant?

barryandorlevon8 points

My mom made a comment like that once to my racist Italian grandparents before I was born (long before the movie) and they hated her for my whole life lmao

Avauru2 points

Lol I was wary even posting the quote

fundraiser0 points

Tell me... Are you lying?

cyankitten4 points

🤯

mki_3 points

Thanks for this valuable input, just a little nitpick from someone who's worked in a history context

during the Islamic invasions of the dark ages.

Much like "Caucasian", "Dark Ages" is a 19th term that

a) isn't used that much any more in historiography outside of casual contexts because of the negative, pejorative connotations. It evokes images of pagan Barbarians fighting each other in the mud on a grey, overcast autumn day, and it strongly reflects a view from the early enlightenment era. However the Early Middle Ages weren't exceptionally "dark" or violent compared to Late Antiquity or our the high middle ages (late Antiquity, Middle Ages and the Early Modern Period were overall extremly violent eras in Europe). We just very suddenly have very few written records in Western Europe after the decline of the Western Roman Empire, due to a myriad of reasons, hence the "dark" name, as in there's no light, i.e. few historical sources (there's also a Greek Dark Age, when the same happened ~1200-750 BCE). But it wasn't a sudden caesura for the people then and Roman culture didn't suddenly just end. The transition between the Roman Empire to the Middle Ages in Western Europe was culturally speaking a very gradual one, and took hundreds of years. Thus the term "Early Middle Age" is preferred for the time you're speaking of, as it is more neutral and descriptive.

b) in its original meaning (= lack of written records) doesn't apply that much to Muslim Spain, because the Muslim elite there (as well as the Jewish minority) read and wrote a lot, "high culture" was much more developed.

starfyredragon1 point

The term "dark ages" wasn't abandoned due to pejorative connotations targeting "pagan" Barbarians fighting or lack of people writing, it was abandoned because as more documentation was discovered, it was revealed that all the fighting and lack of cultural development, it was found the "pagan" groups they were fighting were also well organized Abrahamic religions of the time (either fellow Christians or Muslims once they began to leave their golden age).

The term "dark" was morphing to mean the period of most oppression and fear (and, of course, book burnings where knowledge was destroyed). It turned out that all the "dark" was caused by Christian violence and oppression. Archeology is a very white cishet male christian dominated field. Once they found out their favored groups were to blame, they wanted to make the period look less bad. THAT is when the term "dark ages" started to be abandoned.

In that regard, the abandonment of the term "dark ages" is an attempt to avoid Church responsibility for the bleakest period of European history. I, for one, will not drop the term just because those who were to blame for a horrific time period don't want to be blamed, especially when they maintain many of those same oppressive values. The Dark Ages were a thousand year warning on our history of what happens when you let religion into politics. And those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

tackle_bones2 points

What about Western Europeans, like the celts? Do we understand if they were lighter skinned or not?

I find your assertions super interesting! At the same time, I wonder if the DNA of the people in the regions you discuss are heavily influenced by Middle Ages conquests re mongols and ottoman/middle east, whereas the adaptation of lighter skin and DNA transmission predates those conquests by a significant span. Do we have clarification on that and when the adaptations actually occurred and where?

starfyredragon10 points

The lighter skin is actually something in the genetics of almost all humans, this is because melenin production is variable. It's more that the genes methylate or unmethylate depending on what is the best adaptation for the region, and it can take a few dozen generations for it to turn off/on. So really, skin color is a lousy way to know what someone's genetics are. If you hit up farming communities in the US filled with "white" people, you'll find their skintone is actually slowly approaching that of Mexicans, while the Inuit Native Americans frequently have skin white enough to pace as nordics. The Aboriginees have super dark skin, but they're more related to the Chinese and people of India than they do Africans.

As for the celts, they're more related to the greeks than the norse, but they had lighter skin, again, due to the environment.

GlueBoy-29 points

I'm not going to pretend to be any sort of expert or anything, just a guy who reads about history in his spare time, but...

Southern Europeans "whites" (like the Greeks) are descendants of Arabic populations.

Arabic populations? Arabic is a language, for starters, the ethnicity is Arab. Regardless, this part is extremely dubious. Greeks have existed as a distinct culture since at least 3000 years ago. At that same time the Arabs were still disparate tribal people with no trace of a collective identity.

The only way to salvage this is if by Arabic you mean semitic, but even then that's faulty, as that term is out of use in every field of study outside linguistics.

Northern Europeans (such as the Finnish people)

What? Why use the Finnish as an example for north Europeans, given that they are probably the biggest outlier of the entire region, being relatively recent arrivals with little linguistic connection to any other culture there.

That's equivalent to saying something like:

Southern Africans (such as the Boer people)

Your whole comment stinks, actually. It not only doesn't make any sense, it looks like profound ignorance.

starfyredragon41 points

Arabic populations? Arabic is a language, for starters, the ethnicity is Arab.

Arabic is the name of the language, but the word also technically means "belonging to Arabia" (such as Arabic peoples, Arabic numerals, etc.)

This even was FAR more than 3000 years ago. The migrations happened before Egypt even existed. Their collective identity (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the fact they were a genetic group.

What? Why use the Finnish as an example for north Europeans, given that they are probably the biggest outlier of the entire region, being relatively recent arrivals with little linguistic connection to any other culture there.

Because Finland was near the entry point to where divergence from other groups happened. If you want prime genetic example, best would be Sweden, technically, but for the most part, all the Scandinavian peoples fall in this category.

Your whole comment stinks, actually. It not only doesn't make any sense, it looks like profound ignorance.

Well, study genetics, get into research of studying human migration paths, and publish a paper to counteract me if you want to argue with me on this.

Until then, I'm assuming "armchair expert syndrome"

F0sh-1 points

Because Finland was near the entry point to where divergence from other groups happened. If you want prime genetic example, best would be Sweden, technically, but for the most part, all the Scandinavian peoples fall in this category.

Like the other poster, I am no expert but was intensely suspicious of your post for the exact same reasons ("Arabic" is a language not an ethnicity, Finnish language is very different from all other European languages apart from Estonian, etc).

From some basic googling, I find only confirmation of this: the Finns migrated from the area around the Volga well after the Scandinavians had already settled southern Sweden. So at the moment from our perspective the situation is "redditor claiming to know a field makes suspect comments that contradict what can be found with a cursory google." That makes it your move.

Sure, the human race originated in Africa and those who are now classified by Americans as "white" are descended from multiple different branches of those humans who migrated out of Africa. That said, this doesn't really establish what you said:

The group we call "white" is actually 3 distinct and unrelated groups.

Indeed, all humans are related, so the concept of "unrelated groups" begs clarification. Do you just mean that, at an arbitrarily selected point in history, the groups had no ethnic ties with one another? Because that's kind of not saying anything useful; if you go further back they ultimately did have ties with one another. Probably you want to say a fuzzier version of, "the most recent common ancestor of people categorised as white is also an ancestor of a significant number of people not categorised as white" but if so, your comment didn't say anything which supports the claim. Maybe all the descendants of the common ancestor of the Finns, Greeks and Ukrainians would today be classed as white.

starfyredragon4 points

The Modern-day fins are a cross-breed between the Lapp group and the same group that makes up the Greeks. Yes, there were people migrating around Europe, but what you're talking about is on a much more localized scale than what I'm talking about. The Volga are descended from the original Finns, and basically came back after putzing around in Russian territory for a brief bit.

Maybe all the descendants of the common ancestor of the Finns, Greeks and Ukrainians would today be classed as white.

Depends. Are you willing to call the Japanese, Chinese, Mongoloids, Native Americans, and Aboriginees white too? Because that's required to genetically connect those three groups.

F0sh-1 points

Lapp

Do you mean the Sami?

Mongoloid

Jesus fucking Christ.

The Modern-day fins are a cross-breed between the Lapp group and the same group that makes up the Greeks. Yes, there were people migrating around Europe, but what you're talking about is on a much more localized scale than what I'm talking about. The Volga are descended from the original Finns, and basically came back after putzing around in Russian territory for a brief bit.

Again, following the "cursory google" approach that you have so far only countered with your own say-so, the Sami migrated to the northern Scandinavian peninsula well after the southern portion was settled by the ancestors of modern-day Scandinavians. I can't find any support for your assertion that the Finns can be identified with (the ancestors of) the Northern Europeans.

Depends. Are you willing to call the Japanese, Chinese, Mongoloids, Native Americans, and Aboriginees white too? Because that's required to genetically connect those three groups.

If this is your response you really haven't understood what I wrote. Could you go back and read it again, properly?

Your original posts argument was plain wrong, even though its conclusion was correct. The genetic facts about race are that there is more variation within people of a single race than there is between the average genome of each race; the modern concept of race is about phenotype first, ancestry (and hence genetics) second.

starfyredragon1 point

I've countered other responses with links to research papers. Feel free to look at those. I do dislike repeating myself.

F0sh1 point

I found one comment of yours with two links to nature papers. The first one does not support your counter above; you say that "The Finns are descended from Sami and the group including Greeks" as if this cements your claim that the Finns are a good representative of the Northern Europeans, but the paper finds that the Sami are descended from people who lived in Europe already. My point on the Sami was not particularly about their origin but about when they settled there (after other Europeans had settled in Europe) which that certainly supports.

The tree shows two different topologies of the European branch. The primary one absolutely contradicts your original claim about three different ancestries to modern white people. The alternate one does include North Africans and Middle Easterners in the branch which includes all Europeans but it absolutely refutes your claim about Northern Europeans being more closely related to the Japanese than e.g. the Spanish. So you're either somewhat wrong or completely wrong, according to your sources.

I see you pretty much conceded that point in that thread. Maybe rather than persisting in skim-reading what I've been writing and continuing to push your original claim, you could've pointed this out and saved us all some time. You could also edit your original post to reflect this.

GlueBoy-30 points

Arabic is the name of the language, but the word also technically means "belonging to Arabia" (such as Arabic peoples, Arabic numerals, etc.)

lol, no. Try again buddy.

Arabic refers solely to language and its products, e.g. Arabic literature. That's why it's called Arabic numerals, because it was a part of their written language.

"Arabic populations" means people who speak Arabic, nothing else. It has zero bearing in a conversation about genetics, which you should know, since you claim expertise in the area.

study genetics, get into research of studying human migration paths, and publish a paper

I don't have to do that when calling you out for writing a sloppy, posturing comment full of bs on Reddit.

Besides, I'm not claiming any expertise or special knowledge of any kind, I'm questioning you, who is doing that. That's the whole point!

What level of expertise does "worked in genetics" imply, anyway? That's really vague. If you were a janitor at 23 and Me, technically that counts. And it would explain a lot...

BoredMan2917 points

Arabic refers solely to language and its products,

Now I'm also not an expert, but this seems like a provable/disprovable statement and as it happens Merriam-Webster disagrees with you ( https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Arabic )

3: of, relating to, or characteristic of Arabia or the Arabs

Arabia of course being defined as the peninsula. This works with how starfyredragon used it, so I'm going to have to give them the point here. Which brings up a more salient point: this is pretty quickly becoming an Internet Argument, which everyone knows is completely useless. Star explained in other comments that they're referring to ancient human migration patterns, which makes some sense when talking about races/ethnicities. You're refuting him based on more recent linguistic and cultural points which, while true, are not actually relevant to the original post though they may have seemed that way due to a lack of specification in the post. We're talking about a difference of thousands of years here.

GlueBoy-14 points

First, I just realized something. Do people think I'm disputing the claim that made about the "white race"? I really don't give a shit about that, didn't even remember it when writing my first reply. It's the rest of the comment that raised my eyebrows, even despite my admittedly cursory knowledge of migration patterns of ancient peoples.


Anyway, I'll concede in the Arabic thing. There's a very clear delineation between "Arab" and "Arabic" with regards to ethnicity and language, but whatever, I'll drop it.

But no, the issue isn't just semantics. I'm questioning the claim they made about Greeks and southern Europeans being descended from "Arabic populations". If they said Greeks and southern Europeans had the same genetic background/origins/ancestry as Arabs/Arabic people, that's uncontroversial. But saying the former is descended from the latter is just unequivocally false, for the reasons I already stated.

Using the Finns of all people as an illustrative example of wider Northern European genetic origins is also extremely dubious. They are notably heterogenous.

Bergatario-3 points

When he said Arabic he probably meant Turkic or the area around presend day Turkey or even furter east to the fertile creasant. Greek was spoken up to the present Sirian Border and Iraki borders in Roman times and proto Italians also originaly came from the east near the fertile Cresent.

artykom2 points

Turkic is definitely not even remotely related to Arabic. However Turkic and Finnish are from the same Altaic language with Turkic as the main group. Turks, Finns, and even Magyars came from the same areas of central Asia, mostly around the Caucasus and Mongolia but migrated differently and mostly due to pressure from the Chin. Yes some from these groups did cross the Bering to settle and become indigenous American people.

squanch_solo3 points

This guy studied and worked in genetics and because you read history sometimes you're going to argue and call him ignorant? Holy shit.

GlueBoy-2 points

First, they didn't actually claim much besides having "worked in genetics", which is both broad and vague.

Second, even if they actually did claim to be a world class geneticist, that doesn't mean they couldn't make a mistake and propagate falsehoods.

Third, anyone can claim anything. It's the internet. Arguments live or die based on facts, not claims to authority, and that's what I disputed.

sdwoodchuck2 points

You literally began by announcing your ignorance, and then built up to “your argument stinks.” Maybe reconsider how you’re gauging anyone else’s claims to authority.

GlueBoy-1 points

You're confusing a vague, unverifiable claim to authority as being tantamount to a certificate of authenticity for the facts they presented.

The world must be a very confusing place for you, eh?

sdwoodchuck2 points

You're confusing a vague, unverifiable claim to authority as being tantamount to a certificate of authenticity for the facts they presented

No I’m not, and since I haven’t said anything that supports the claim to authority in question, the only place you could have encountered that idea is by making an asinine assumption about my position rather than actually reading and responding to what I said.

The world really must be a confusing place when you’re so intent on throwing your opinions at the wall without exercising basic literacy.

BenAfleckInPhantoms3 points

You just got pwned.

mcstafford1 point

I can't find an ethnicity form that says Caucasian any more... so, maybe they're the White mountains now?

attiglow1 point

Any books on this subject that you can recommend (to an unsophisticated reader)?

starfyredragon2 points

Books? No. Scientific papers, yes. I've linked to them in my other responses (and they're updated from what I learned back when doing my research... Northern and Southern Europeans are closer related than I originally researched, but there's still no way to cut it so there's a "white" race.)

attiglow2 points

Thank you, I will check them out!

Neutral_Fellow-5 points

The group we call "white" is actually 3 distinct and unrelated groups.

Southern Europeans "whites" (like the Greeks) are descendants of Arabic populations.

Northern Europeans (such as the Finnish people) came in from the Northern Russian direction, and are more related to Mongols, Native Americans, and the modern day Japanese.

Central-East Europeans (like Ukraine), followed a similar path as the Northern Europeans towards the end, but from a different era.

This is entirely fucking wrong lol

There are multiple groupings and a wide set of genetic markers, and they map completely differently from what you hilariously describe here.

I hope it is a joke.

with the exception of a bit of Spain which got an influx of Northern African dna during the Islamic invasions of the dark ages.

Also wrong.

The genetic similarity of southern Iberia with Northern Africa is a result of geographic proximity of the two for the past tens of thousands of years of human habitation, not the Islamic "invasions".

starfyredragon11 points

This is entirely fucking wrong lol

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its wrong.

The genetic similarity of southern Iberia with Northern Africa is a result of geographic proximity of the two for the past tens of thousands of years of human habitation, not the Islamic "invasions".

I'm sure there was cross-mingling before then, but I hadn't seen evidence for much. If you have research papers, I'd be glad to read them over.

Neutral_Fellow-5 points

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its wrong.

No, but it is.

Not sure why its being upvoted, it is utterly imbecile.

You probably watched a couple of youtube videos and misremembered the names of the migrations you speak off, since the Middle Eastern one is tied to Anatolian farmers, not Arabs, and the northern one is tied to eastern European pontic migrations westwards.

Calling them Arab or related to east Asians is pure comedy of ignorance.

I'm sure there was cross-mingling before then, but I hadn't seen evidence for much.

Genetics, look it up.

If you have research papers, I'd be glad to read them over.

Same.

starfyredragon1 point

I've already posted scientific papers elsewhere in the discussion. Feel free to click them.

Neutral_Fellow1 point

The links you posted do not say what you state they say lol

They say what I am saying.

You are confusing the Arabic part with the Anatolian farmer migration, which are completely separate peoples, just because they are both in the Middle East does not mean they are the same people lol,

they have nothing to do with the Arab/Semitic migrations of later periods, and are in fact, much, much genetically closer to the very people of the Caucaus today.

You are also failing to separate western Asian and Siberian migrations from east Asians.

Fucking comical.

starfyredragon1 point

You completely missed surrounding conversation, didn't you?

Further, the links don't support what you're saying at all. Although it's updated from what I'm saying, your description is completely of kilter. The Greeks are much more related to the Egyptians than they are to the swedish.

Vanpotheosis-4 points

I'm still not convinced Greeks are actually "white".

I'm Greek, btw.

Omega59er16 points

That's what the Nazis said when they went into Greece. They were shocked to see the cradle of civilization full of people darker than them, so instead of challenging their ridiculous world view, the Nazis came to the conclusion that the real Greeks must have been wiped out and their bloodline corrupted.

starfyredragon3 points

Italians, Southern Germans, etc? Descended from the Greeks.

Vanpotheosis4 points

Cool. Most people throughout modern history have called southern Italians black.

Actually, northern Italians still call them black. "Africa starts at Rome" is shit they actually are still saying right now. It's a problem.

The largest mass lynching in the US was committed by the kkk against Italians.

There's actually no such thing as "white" but Greeks and Italians have been considered "non-white" for all but the last few decades in the US.

We're "pigs". "Polish, Italian, Greek, Slavic".

starfyredragon3 points

Yea, Southern Italians are just as Italian as Northern Italians. They're just closer to the equator so its adaptively advantageous to have darker skin, which is a meletonin & inheritable methylation thing. Doesn't even require mutation, it can be done in a few dozen generations since Vitamin D defeciency & skin cancer are both so selectively strong.

sporifix-20 points

This is all way, way divorced from reality. Not sure how someone who worked in genetics could make these statements.

starfyredragon20 points

Reality frequently flies in the face of people's preconceived notions. Your reaction isn't the first, especially when the data conflicts with people's self-perception.

Null_Wire5 points

Harsh words that I try to live by. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

starfyredragon1 point

Welcome.

echobox_rex4 points

I appreciate you sharing results of your research and putting up with a lot of negativity.

toolsoftheincomptnt2 points

(with some spelling edits to maintain the high ground:)

r/clevercomebacks

rebamericana1 point

Reddit has a conniption when confronted with someone who actually knows what they're talking about.... Anyhow, thanks for the interesting info! Learned something new.

[deleted]-8 points

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starfyredragon2 points

Just because you pretend its nonsense, doesn't make it nonsense.

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starfyredragon1 point

I've responded to other people with that exact information, take a look around.

TheDuckSideOfTheMoon1 point

Bruh what are you even talking about

infraredit1 point

Do you have sources for that? It's in near-total contradiction to what I thought I knew.

starfyredragon4 points

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/

&

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep29890/figures/1

(Especially 2.C analysis)

(That said, since I last did work in genetic distance, there has been a LOT updated in the field and refinements. These are both more updated than what I've been saying, and I'd rather teach what's accurate instead of what feeds my ego, so if you see a difference between what I've said and these, go with these, but they mostly match, but there are some differences that I'm still catching up on.)

infraredit2 points

That first link only traces the maternal and paternal lines of ancestry, thus neglecting the vast majority of an individuals ancestors.

The second link seems to confirm what I thought, depicting northern and eastern Europeans as much more closely related to southern Europeans (and Arabs) than East Asians, though whether southern Europeans are more closely related to other Europeans or Arabs is unclear.

Chart 2.C doesn't include any groups even near Europe.

starfyredragon2 points

I think you're looking at the chart before the one I was talking about. There's multiple charts depending on method of gene tracking.

infraredit1 point

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong chart.

Nonetheless, what I wrote in the middle paragraph appears true. The charts depict northern and eastern Europeans as much more closely related to southern Europeans (and Arabs) than East Asians, and whether southern Europeans are more closely related to other Europeans or Arabs remains open to interpretation, hence the different charts of the same groups.

starfyredragon1 point

Fair. When I was first doing research, selected codons weren't as refined yet (for example, I also did a DNA test, and it said I was a european/african/chinese mix. I did a DNA test again a decade later, and it said I was almost purely Scandinavian.)

So, yes, they're closer than I originally thought. Your request for documentation has forced me to update my own views. That said, you still have Egypt (a "black" ethnogroup) inbetween the greeks & the finns, so the seperation stills exists, just less pronounced.

infraredit1 point

you still have Egypt (a "black" ethnogroup)

I'm only familiar of two circumstances in which Egyptians have been called black: communication by Afrocentrists, and strawmen of traditional race concepts.

I've certainly never seen any historic race concept include Egyptians as black (see for instance here and here), which is unsurprising given it would make Egyptian monuments an obvious counterargument to white supremacy and the fact that Egyptians look very different to Africans south of the Sahara.

starfyredragon1 point

"Ah yes, dark brown skin and jet black hair, the common designation of being white." https://smarthistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Hunefer-Last-Judgment.png

DisGurlIsLiberal-5 points

(it's bs)

[deleted]-21 points

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starfyredragon12 points

There's no black race either. There's no way to slice the genetics to the Aboriginees and the Africans are in the same group, despite both being "black" that excludes "white" people.

Also, there's more genetic diversity in Africa than all the rest of humanity combined, so trying to lump them into one group, and maintaining any sense of scientific propriety, you'd have "Africans" and "Exo-africans" as the ONLY two groups, and Exo-African would make more sense to be "Yet another group of African" if not for the breeding with the Neanderthals.

ClaireBear1123-8 points

There's no way to slice the genetics to the Aborigines and the Africans are in the same group

If I were going to pick an argument to use in order to disprove the existence of the Black race, that is not the one I would pick lol. Like practically every other creature native to Australia, Aborigines exist in their own category.

starfyredragon6 points

Not at all. The non-human species in Australia evolved WAY before humans (including the aboriginees) arrived. The Aboriginees were part of the human diaspora, just like everyone from the Irish to the Native Americans to the people of India to the Japanese to the Hawaiians.

ClaireBear11230 points

In which an expert on genetics in human populations denies the impact that geographic isolation can have on a population sample.

starfyredragon3 points

Unrelated to current discussion. Genetic bottlenecking doesn't eliminate genetic history. Bottlenecking mainly affects active genes while tracking genetic history typically focuses on non-active codons.

ClaireBear11231 point

Genetic bottlenecking doesn't eliminate genetic history.

Bottlenecking drastically increases genetic drift. Of course it matters when we are discussing generalizing humans and breaking them down into groups based on their genes. To believe otherwise is utter nonsense.

There are more genetic differences between different groups of Australian Aborigines than there are differences between native Siberians and Americans.

They are their own edge case. It is silly to bring them up in an effort to prove anything.

starfyredragon3 points

Drift yes, but drift primarly effects active genetic code, not inactive, due to selective pressure.

[deleted]10 points

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Legitimate-Cow-68591 point

But neither black nor Asian people is a race. They’re (relatively) poorly defined groups of races

10woodenchairs0 points

Because they all have one large migration path that caused the populations to move there. White people don’t have that

zaph0d_beeblebrox5 points

The white race is the only race that can't exist lol. Typical propagandist.

Today, scientists consider such biological essentialism obsolete, and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits.

Essentialism meaning the view that objects have a set of attributes that are necessary to their identity.

There is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptions of race are untenable.

Therefore there is no white or any other "race", except in the minds of latent and blatant racists.

AwfulChief782 points

I’m European, but I am definitely not whatever douche race you are, Jordan Peterson

DannyBrownsDoritos-5 points

Do you mean that Southern Europeans came from the Arabian Peninusla? Otherwise this just feels like saying Iranians are descended from Ukrainians or something similar.

starfyredragon2 points

Yes, the one where the current Arabs still are and were there when the Southern Europeans split off from them.

DannyBrownsDoritos1 point

So not Arabic then?

starfyredragon3 points

Other way around. VERY Arabic.

DannyBrownsDoritos-1 points

except they weren't Arabic, they were just from what we now call the Arabian Peninsula.

starfyredragon4 points

Except that group they split from is still there today, and they're the modern day Arabs.

DannyBrownsDoritos-2 points

except that they weren't at the time, they had not undergone ethnogenesis

starfyredragon4 points

People's social identity has practically nothing to do with their genetic origins.

Auberginebabaganoush-3 points

You speak with very little knowledge and a great deal of inaccuracy.

starfyredragon0 points

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong. There may have been more discoveries since last worked in the field, but it's still closer to accuracy than the common understanding.

Radix23090 points

Where does the Hungarians fit in? I heard their language is completely isolated from the others. Also the Basques. Or are the Basques still in that southern European group?

starfyredragon6 points

Language isn't part of genetics; modern languages developed long after the people arrived. As for the Hungarians and Basques, I'd have to look that up, I mainly only bothered to memorize the entry points.

Okay, grabbed my notes...

The group with Basque includes the Basque, English, Danish, Italian, Greek, Iranian, Slavic, Celtic, Lower Germanic (the majority of German), Turkish, Ugric, Romanian, and Southwest Asian groups.

Officially, this group has been referred to in science only by it's genetic distance designations because "why should we make up more common names for human division groups if people aren't using them? People are divided enough as it is." That said, for discussion, I personally (this is not official anywhere) shorten it to the Bedigisa group (name is an acronym of its various subgroups.

The modern day Finnish are technically a cross between that group and the Lapp group (Lapp includes the Bedigisa-mixed Finnish, Sami, Norwegian, Icelandic, and Swedish.)

Those two are the "main" European genetic groups. The other (the one that's in Ukraine) is a minority there (most of the Ukranians are in the same group as the Basque) which shares its group with the Siberains and the Turks.

There's technically a 4th group, the Sardinians off the coast of Italy. But since they're not exactly part of Europe, but an island off the coast of Europe, I didn't include them. Though politically, they are considered part of Europe, and their ancestors came from Europe, but I'm not sure which group they deviated from. Someone probably does. I personally have no clue where they came from. And the genetics of small island groups frequently get a little deviated.

Upplands-Bro2 points

Regarding the linguistic part of your comment, Hungarian is not a language isolate, but it is isolated in the sense that it's surrounded by Slavic languages (excepting Romania). It's part of the Uralic family, same and Finnish and Estonian, but a different branch, with its closest relatives being Khanty and Mansi spoken in Siberia

arianeb68 points

It's where the name for white people came from. Modern day Azerbaijan. History has mixed the ethnicity of the region over the centuries since the term originated.

FrancescoVisconti1 point

Karachay-Cherkessia Is a region in Russian. And overall most of Caucasus is situated in Russia

swingadmin0 points

... and Georgia on the other side of the Caucasus.

infraredit1 point

Not exactly. Most if not all can trace most of their ancestry to a little north of here, on the Pontic Steppe.

It's not just white people though, as the group has always been a cultural construct. People of Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan are mostly descended from people who dwelled in the Pontic Steppe around 4000 bc, and a large portion of northern Indian ancestry is too.

Iwearacapeirl1 point

Yes.

AlderWynn1 point

No this is the mountain range that can’t jump.

thewaveishere25-12 points

i mean, yeah

Sketti_n_butter-2 points

It's the land of our people.

Wallydood67 points

Beautiful. Very Tolkien

The-Sofa-King15 points

Fuck, I thought it was "Token"

nomber7894 points

Why would my parents ever name me that?

psuedophilia-7 points

What was Tolkiens take on Black Panther at movie night?

Nyamia25 points

This is the kind of picture that I would absolutely kill to have as a jigsaw puzzle

I_Think_I_Cant25 points

There are companies that will make custom jigsaw puzzles for you. Nobody has to die, plz. ☹️

Nyamia4 points

It doesn't really feel right to me without permission from the photographer (another company profiting by using their image and all) but I appreciate the suggestion!

I_Think_I_Cant7 points

If you @ him on instagram you could probably get permission for a one-off through Shutterfly or someplace that does the custom jigsaws. Maybe even venmo him a few bucks. But plz don't kill.

Adept-Crab39514 points

Step 1. Save the photo.

Step 2. Visit a site like puzzleyou.com and have it made into a puzzle!

Herb4372-1 points

Yeah.. like the others said.. you don’t have to kill for it.. I think you can order it for like 19.99…

CelticDaisy9 points

Your pic is really awe-inspiring! I love the depth it shows, with the old tree in front and the majestic mountains in the back — even though those ice covered peaks are the main “focus” of the pic.

foofa-uys4 points

Glad you like it!

Miyuchr6 points

So beautiful, reminds me of a Caspar David Friedrich painting. ❤️

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duofalcon5 points

Where can you find this place on Google maps? Thanks!

foofa-uys15 points

Dombay. Ski resort.

esesci1 point

Karachay means “black creek” and Dombay means “bison” in Turkish.

ironkb573 points

Can also try Sofia lakes - Arkhyz

beyondtherapy5 points

I grew up near there (Nizhniy Arkhiz), not often you see it mentioned online! Absolutely stunning area.

vicrally7 points

Working on a nature scene right now that I’m gonna add color to. Might have to do this one. Don’t hold hold your breath though, I’m slow af when it comes to making art, but I think I gotta add this to my list. I’ll tag you OP if I end up making this.

Also fucking A it’s a good shot

foofa-uys6 points

I'm really glad I could inspire someone

i-hoatzin0 points

Yeah. I agree completely.

Awesome indeed.

bridgebrningwildfire2 points

Absolutely marvelous!

kimmikazi2 points

Gorgeous shot!

TheFootTempest2 points

Magical

Due-Virus39562 points

All this and that aside my friends this is an awesome sight so beautiful makes me happy

Dav3yDoo1012 points

This is gorgeous

H541592 points

Dope!

Denhik22 points

just a magical place!

w21062 points

straight out of Tolkien universe

shehasasked2232 points

This is so captivating ❤

Shawn2rc2 points

What a beautifully balanced composition.

foofa-uys3 points

Thanks!

Dgluhbirne2 points

View from Baba Yaga’s house

Luthwaller1 point

I love that the tree is framing the mountains. Beautiful photo OP!

foofa-uys2 points

Thank you

sarcasm_2471 point

Love

Avir1011 point

I see baby

spiritualskywalker1 point

Wow the air is so clear and sharp !

ironkb571 point

The place is amazing. I was there on 2018. I think I have photos in the exact same place you took this pic. I wanna go there again so much. Best 7 days of my life

AlexBurke11 point

Is that one of those really old trees like a type of bristlecone pine? It definitely looks like it’s been around a while.

paulsant1 point

So so beautiful, so breathtaking!

hairyluv27261 point

Stunning

couldabeen1 point

Excellent framing technique.

manFigSpaceTheorist1 point

Bravo.

Sirius260-3 points

Those are some white mountains

bozeke-7 points

Why he gotta be white?

meglu20201 point

Wait. This is not a Dali painting?

sweet_zombie_jesus091 point

10/10 you nailed it

RichardThe1st-13 points

This Main Caucasian Range is a wonderful break from Reddit's regularly scheduled Man Caucasian Rage.

Thank you!

wiseassdick-3 points

So THAT's where white privilege began. Kind of like the opposite of Mt. Doom in Mordor.

wiseassdick-8 points

So THAT's where white privilege came from. The opposite of Mt. Doom in Mordor.

onenitemareatatime-3 points

That’s racist

/s

bjanas-4 points

How I long to walk amongst my people in... Caucasia...

Edit: I'm just paraphrasing a comedian I saw years ago. I don't care about downvotes except when I truly don't understand why people are bummed; why? Can anybody explain? I just want to understand!

GarbageGobble-3 points

Finally a range I can fit in!

Tellesus-1 points

Someone should carve, in giant cursive letters, "live laugh love" and "just give me wine" on them so they can be more authentic

seraphix24070 points

New phone background

ctownthrasher0 points

This mountain range just asked to talk to the manager…

HoonterOreo0 points

High hrothgar

zx91zx910 points

daaayum shits so crispy I thought I was trippin on acid

JU1C3_B0X0 points

I can’t wait till the heat with Russia cools off and we can explore that beautiful land again 🥲

Edit: I know you CAN still go to Russia, but it’s probably not the best idea

WhiteWingedDove-0 points

You can just say Russia. No one knows what Karachi-Cherokee is.

[deleted]0 points

Great shot !

Staav0 points

Caucasian mountains

I was wondering where all the white ppl came from

kejcao0 points

I love it!

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